Why are game animals viewed differently.

[Buckmaster7600]

In the pheasant threat @ATbuckhunter brought up that he won’t take a running shot on a deer and it got me thinking. Why do we view deer differently than foul? I completely understand the difference between a bullet and shot, a single projectile needs to be more precise than a pattern of shot. However as anyone that’s shot a load of shot at a patterning board is well aware it’s hard to completely miss a target once the shot distance passes 15-20yds and the pattern spreads out to the size of a poster board. If a bird flys away that doesn’t mean you didn’t hit it,  you didn’t kill it. I’m  far from an expert upland hunter and I’ve never had a formally trained dog but I do get out after grouse some and on multiple occasions I have had my dogs retrieve dead birds that showed no signs of being hit and were found hundreds of yards away. I’m sure this happens with some regularity and I’m sure many aren’t recovered. It’s a general consensus that it’s unsporting to shoot an upland bird, duck, etc on the ground and should be shot “at” in the air yet as hunters our goal is always to take the most ethical shot to limit suffering. Although less sporting wouldn’t it be more ethical to shoot them on the ground for the fastest most humane kill possible?

 

Nobody is going to see a deer and make it run before shooting to make it more sporting but why is it ok for one but not the other. The common opinion on shooting at running deer has changed in my lifetime it was once perfectly acceptable and a normal thing to shoot running deer. I would rather shoot a deer that’s standing still however I will absolutely shoot a running deer if the conditions/situation are correct. Throughout my 25 years of hunting it has became a practice that is looked down upon by many and I’m just curious what others think on why we view the game differently. 

[ATbuckhunter]

I'll take a stab at this. Happy to debate this. And just to be clear, there is no difference because of the quarry.

So In my opinion its because (as you said yourself) of the shot pattern of a shotgun compared to the singular projectile of a slug/bullet. Its insistently easier to hit a bird flying well than it is to hit a deer running well. And when I say well, I don't mean a gut shot, I mean a shot through both lungs and/or the heart. Having a good trained bird dog is also a huge help to find those birds that are not shot well. Does it happen that birds are still alive when they hit the ground...absolutely. Difference is a good dog will have that bird back to your hand with in minutes so you can finish it off vs having to wait 6 or so hours for a gut shot deer to die. My main problem is I see guys shooting at running deer and they are so focused on shooting more than one deer on a drive that they don't focus on each shot like they should. And I also see them shooting the legs out and watching a deer struggle to run away because its back leg is broken is frankly heart breaking to me. It also ruins a lot of meat, which I find to be essential to my hunting. I mostly eat deer meat and other game I catch/harvest, instead of buying a ton of meat at the store.

I will admit that we do deer drives here on the island during the shotgun season. In fact 2 forum members are joining me in exactly a week for the drives. They can both attest that I take a muzzleloader so I am not tempted to shoot at a running deer. Since I have the one shot, I wait until the deer is walking, standing or at the very least trotting at a low speed. If a deer does not stop, I don't take a shot. Some guys are incredibly good at running shots. If you ever watched the driven hunts in Europe, you'll see how good some of these guys are. So its not that I'm against running shots, its more that many of the guys just don't take the time to practice it. Upland guys shoot sporting clays for practice, but most deer guys do not practice running shots at all. If they were to practice like they do in Europe, id see way less videos of deer looking like swiss cheese after drives.

I will concede and say that it is more ethical for the bird to be shot on the ground as you have a higher chance of hitting it. There's no doubt that we put better shots on birds on the ground. I can say that because I've shot maybe 4 or 5 pheasant on the ground. Most were before I got my dog, but 2 were after. I don't like shooting birds on the ground or even low flying birds for the safety of the dog. I don't really mind if guys shoot birds on the ground as long since its legal. I like shooting them flying also because its more fun and completes the sequence. What I mean by that is my dog points, I flush, shoot and then the dog retrieves it to hand. That's like a bowhunter finding a trail, setting up 20 yards from it, a deer coming down broadside and the hunter nailing a double lung/heart shot on it. 

I also took this stance after I got a dog. It really put things into perspective for me that I'd want every animal I hunt to be harvested as quickly and painlessly as possible. I just don't feel like guys are practicing running shots enough to make it ethical. I know some guys absolutely are, and have seen the videos of it. Its however legal so to each his own.

 

[Wolc123]

What about bunnies ?  My last two were sitting still, when I shot them (one with my side by side 16 ga and the other with my Ruger 10/22).  I’ll admit to feeling just a smidge  remorseful about the former, but there were other hunters around so I took the clear, safe, but “unsporting” shot when it was there.  

As far as grouse go, I’ve certainly shot at more of them in the air than I did on the ground but I have killed almost as many on the ground, as I have in the air.  
 

It don’t matter at all to me what others think of ethics or sportsmanship, but I am concerned with safety and meat acquisition.  For those reasons, a standing “on the ground” shot is always preferable to me at any game animal. 
 

If I am badly in need of meat, and a safe running shot at a deer is offered, I will certainly attempt it.  Safety always comes first and meat second with me, while “sportsmanship” is dead last.  
 

It wasn’t always that way. I used to participate in a fair amount of deer drives when I was young, where almost all of the shots were at running deer.  My first kill was a button buck running very fast downhill in Allegheny state park.  Family sill hunt there and they still talk about that shot.  Looking back, it’s more likely that my shot hit the second one of the pair of bb’s perfectly thru the front shoulders, rather than the leader that I’d more likely aimed at.  Although it may have been legit because I had quite a bit of “practice” at running rabbits with my side be side at that time and throwing a pattern is not that much different than throwing a slug as far as required lead.  
 

If I did lead right that first time, I sure didn’t the next though.  The next running deer I killed was a 6-pointer that I hit in the femoral artery, on my 5th and closest shot as it ran a semi-circle past me, after being shot at by my neighbor here at our home farm.  It took me a while to really get that lead thing down properly on deer

i think people who judge what others do, especially if it is safe and legal, are very foolish .  That said, we certainly have a few of them fools around here.  

[dbHunterNY]

i'm not a waterfowl hunter. upland bird hunting i've shot grouse, crows, farm yard pigeons, and anything else with a sustainable population here. didn't matter if on the ground and in the air. i've not taken shots some of them both on the ground or in the air for various ethical reasons to were i felt it wasn't a clean shot.

[Buckmaster7600]

21 minutes ago, ATbuckhunter said:

I'll take a stab at this. Happy to debate this. And just to be clear, there is no difference because of the quarry.

So In my opinion its because (as you said yourself) of the shot pattern of a shotgun compared to the singular projectile of a slug/bullet. Its insistently easier to hit a bird flying well than it is to hit a deer running well. And when I say well, I don't mean a gut shot, I mean a shot through both lungs and/or the heart. Having a good trained bird dog is also a huge help to find those birds that are not shot well. Does it happen that birds are still alive when they hit the ground...absolutely. Difference is a good dog will have that bird back to your hand with in minutes so you can finish it off vs having to wait 6 or so hours for a gut shot deer to die. My main problem is I see guys shooting at running deer and they are so focused on shooting more than one deer on a drive that they don't focus on each shot like they should. And I also see them shooting the legs out and watching a deer struggle to run away because its back leg is broken is frankly heart breaking to me. It also ruins a lot of meat, which I find to be essential to my hunting. I mostly eat deer meat and other game I catch/harvest, instead of buying a ton of meat at the store.

I will admit that we do deer drives here on the island during the shotgun season. In fact 2 forum members are joining me in exactly a week for the drives. They can both attest that I take a muzzleloader so I am not tempted to shoot at a running deer. Since I have the one shot, I wait until the deer is walking, standing or at the very least trotting at a low speed. If a deer does not stop, I don't take a shot. Some guys are incredibly good at running shots. If you ever watched the driven hunts in Europe, you'll see how good some of these guys are. So its not that I'm against running shots, its more that many of the guys just don't take the time to practice it. Upland guys shoot sporting clays for practice, but most deer guys do not practice running shots at all. If they were to practice like they do in Europe, id see way less videos of deer looking like swiss cheese after drives.

I will concede and say that it is more ethical for the bird to be shot on the ground as you have a higher chance of hitting it. There's no doubt that we put better shots on birds on the ground. I can say that because I've shot maybe 4 or 5 pheasant on the ground. Most were before I got my dog, but 2 were after. I don't like shooting birds on the ground or even low flying birds for the safety of the dog. I don't really mind if guys shoot birds on the ground as long since its legal. I like shooting them flying also because its more fun and completes the sequence. What I mean by that is my dog points, I flush, shoot and then the dog retrieves it to hand. That's like a bowhunter finding a trail, setting up 20 yards from it, a deer coming down broadside and the hunter nailing a double lung/heart shot on it. 

I also took this stance after I got a dog. It really put things into perspective for me that I'd want every animal I hunt to be harvested as quickly and painlessly as possible. I just don't feel like guys are practicing running shots enough to make it ethical. I know some guys absolutely are, and have seen the videos of it. Its however legal so to each his own.

 

I agree 100% on the practice aspect! I have a spot where we shoot rolled tires with cardboard screwed to them and also a cable and pulley system with a plywood deer cutout. I practice running shots a lot. Many of my buddies are very humbled when they come over to practice. 
 

 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Buckmaster7600

[Belo]

I'm probably not well versed in this enough to have a strong opinion or comment but I think it generally comes down to size/rarity. A shot at a game bird is generally a pretty obtainable opportunity that may feed 1 or 2 people. An ungulate is something many of us spend dozens upon dozens of hours preparing for before we even step foot in the woods with a weapon and then it may not even work out. If it does, it provides countless meals. 

Wounding and losing any animal sucks. Hell I spent over an hour tracking down a wounded squirrel out of principle. But wounding and losing a large game animal really sucks due to my previous thoughts.

All that said, I'd shoot a sitting duck and have shot a sitting goose haha. 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Belo

[ATbuckhunter]

3 minutes ago, Belo said:

I'm probably well versed in this enough to have a strong opinion or comment but I think it generally comes down to size/rarity. A shot at a game bird is generally a pretty obtainable opportunity that may feed 1 or 2 people. An ungulate is something many of us spend dozens upon dozens of hours preparing for before we even step foot in the woods with a weapon and then it may not even work out. If it does, it provides countless meals. 

Wounding and losing any animal sucks. Hell I spent over an hour tracking down a wounded squirrel out of principle. But wounding and losing a large game animal really sucks due to my previous thoughts.

All that said, I'd shoot a sitting duck and have shot a sitting goose haha. 

I can tell you from experience not all game birds are very obtainable. Many people go to Wyoming and hunt for a week straight covering tens of miles every day and maybe shoot 1 or 2. I shot 3 in the first 2 days and spent 5 days climbing to 10k feet to find blue grouse...which I found exactly one on the last day.

[ATbuckhunter]

8 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

I agree 100% on the practice aspect! I have a spot where we shoot rolled tires with cardboard screwed to them and also a cable and pulley system with a plywood deer cutout. I practice running shots a lot. Many of my buddies are very humbled when they come over to practice. 
 

 

Thats the point. Most people think they can do it because they're large animals, but don't realize how hard it can actually be. We also see it with new guys in bird hunting. They miss or barely hit more game than they drop dead our of the air. The main equalizer is the dog here. With out a dog, upland hunting is very different. A lot more birds are lost that way

[mowin]

I think the answer is simple. 

Because each species we hunt, are different, the hunting techniques are different.  We were taught shooting birds in flight was the "proper" way. With spring turkey being the exception.  I was told shooting a duck on the water was a sin, as was taking a pheasant on the ground, even if legal.  Not sure why.  I was taught to never take a running shot at deer, although I have a few times with success, but I don't make a habit of doing so. 

 

[Buckmaster7600]

12 minutes ago, ATbuckhunter said:

Thats the point. Most people think they can do it because they're large animals, but don't realize how hard it can actually be. We also see it with new guys in bird hunting. They miss or barely hit more game than they drop dead our of the air. The main equalizer is the dog here. With out a dog, upland hunting is very different. A lot more birds are lost that way

With tracking, snow is also the equalizer. Although wounding game is never the goal if I can tracks deer for 5-10 miles before getting a shot I like my odds of recovering after I get them bleeding. 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Buckmaster7600

[ATbuckhunter]

5 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

With tracking, snow is also the equalizer. Although wounding game is never the goal if I can tracks deer for 5-10 miles before getting a shot I like my odds of recovering after I get them bleeding. 

As far as finding the deer after, you're right. Snow is a huge help in game recovery for most game. However a wounded deer can sometimes go miles while a wounded bird rarely ever goes more than 100 yards. But it does happen that a poorly shot sharptail grouse or other western plains bird can go hundreds of yards if their wings are still open and sailing.

[Belo]

24 minutes ago, ATbuckhunter said:

I can tell you from experience not all game birds are very obtainable. Many people go to Wyoming and hunt for a week straight covering tens of miles every day and maybe shoot 1 or 2. I shot 3 in the first 2 days and spent 5 days climbing to 10k feet to find blue grouse...which I found exactly one on the last day.

That's why I tried to use the term "generally". But even so, there are probably more deer hunters that take a similar trip and get nothing. 

[ATbuckhunter]

4 minutes ago, Belo said:

That's why I tried to use the term "generally". But even so, there are probably more deer hunters that take a similar trip and get nothing. 

Fair enough, I missed that when I was reading.

[grampy]

Back when I first started deer hunting, drives were much more common a way to get your deer. And running shots were much more common and practiced. We too, used to shoot at tires rolled down hill to practice hitting moving targets. I have shot many running deer years ago. But in the last 20 years I can only think of one dropped DRT while running (my first with a rifle). Because we seldom do drives anymore, except for maybe the last weekend of regular season. Hitting a running deer does need practice! Not all can do it efficiently. Many times going to track deer with DeerSearch, the hunter would tell me the deer was running. I would always ask if they had practiced for a running shot? Most every time the answer would be no, this was the first time I did it. And I'd say that's probably why I'm here.

I never really got into upland bird hunting. But have taken a fair share of partridge, grouse, pheasants, and a few geese. And always held to the "sporting" way of shooting them in the air. No doubt some birds were wounded and not recovered. Where if I shot when they were on the ground, the success rate would surely have been higher, but to me, not near as exciting.

[Ncountry]

 I always found this interesting.  Like you said, I wouldn't dream of kicking a deer up to make it more "sporting". 

I'm not that guy that has to shoot a flying bird . I'd rather they were sitting still. I've shot way more grouse on the ground sitting still , than I have flying. Same with ducks. Sneak up on a pond and let em have it. lol.